Ostrich Fiat problem

Tommi · Post by **Tommi** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:23 am

Hi
I use Ostrich Real Time ECM Emulator to chip Magneti Marell ECU-s IAW 8F, 16F, 18F based no MC68HC11F1 processor. i have create the definition file (it is on this forum on "Other cars" section)
for the emulation purpose hardware/software is ok and works fine but when i try to use real time emulation and make some changes on the program it always shut dond the engine. I'm unabble to use the EmUtility becouse i have always comunicate that the file is in use and i can't replace file.
the main issue is that the engine is shut down during bin upload/changes upload. how can I solve this issue?
Rgds from Poland
Tommi.

peluca · Post by **peluca** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:47 am

I think that your problem it's checksum related.

Tommi · Post by **Tommi** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:55 am

peluca wrote:I think that your problem it's checksum related.

when I upload the same bin without calculating the checksum after shuting down the engine there is no problem with that. engine is runing ok. this happen ONLY in real time changes.

Post by **Mangus** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:34 am

What happens when you make a change without uploading, then change it back to the original value and upload the change? Said a different way, upload the same value to the emulator.

If the ECM coughs during such an operation, then the emulator might not be updating fast enough for the ECU.

Tommi · Post by **Tommi** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:59 am

Mangus wrote:What happens when you make a change without uploading, then change it back to the original value and upload the change? Said a different way, upload the same value to the emulator.

If the ECM coughs during such an operation, then the emulator might not be updating fast enough for the ECU.

I will make the tests ASAP but as i remember, when i change some things in maps without uploadin them the changes are back to orginal values. tell me one more thing, is there a solution for the problem IF the emulator is not fast enough for the ECU? is there a possibility to make it run faster?
when I use "emutility" it takes mabe one second to upload 512kb for the emulator, when i use tuner pro it takes 5-10s are there some config. to make with tuner pro to make it run faster with emulator?

Post by **Mangus** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:52 pm

Tommi wrote:
Mangus wrote:What happens when you make a change without uploading, then change it back to the original value and upload the change? Said a different way, upload the same value to the emulator.

If the ECM coughs during such an operation, then the emulator might not be updating fast enough for the ECU.
I will make the tests ASAP but as i remember, when i change some things in maps without uploadin them the changes are back to orginal values. tell me one more thing, is there a solution for the problem IF the emulator is not fast enough for the ECU? is there a possibility to make it run faster?
when I use "emutility" it takes mabe one second to upload 512kb for the emulator, when i use tuner pro it takes 5-10s are there some config. to make with tuner pro to make it run faster with emulator?

By uploading the same value, we're trying to determine that the checkusm is not the issue. If you can upload the same value and there is no issue, then the issue is likely the checksum. If you upload and there is still an issue, then it's likely the emulator. If the problem is that the emulator doesn't upload fast enough, then we'll have to escalate the issue to Craig Moates. Unfortunately neither Craig nor myself have any experience with Fiat ECUs, so you're definitely testing something that we haven't tried! =)

Tommi · Post by **Tommi** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:07 am

Mangus wrote: By uploading the same value, we're trying to determine that the checkusm is not the issue. If you can upload the same value and there is no issue, then the issue is likely the checksum. If you upload and there is still an issue, then it's likely the emulator. If the problem is that the emulator doesn't upload fast enough, then we'll have to escalate the issue to Craig Moates. Unfortunately neither Craig nor myself have any experience with Fiat ECUs, so you're definitely testing something that we haven't tried! =)

ok so the check sum is not a problem, eaven when i upload the same walue the engine stops. Somebody on another forum thould me that there is something like "silence update" but hi didn't explain what exactly is it. mabe you can help me?

Post by **Mangus** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:05 am

Silent updates are a Romulator concept, and TunerPro always does silent updates.

It could very well be taht the ECU you're trying to emulate with is very sensitive to uploads.

I'd be curious to hear what Craig has to say. You might email him this thread. He might have some ideas from a firmware perspective.

Tommi · Post by **Tommi** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:59 am

Mangus wrote:Silent updates are a Romulator concept, and TunerPro always does silent updates.

It could very well be taht the ECU you're trying to emulate with is very sensitive to uploads.

I'd be curious to hear what Craig has to say. You might email him this thread. He might have some ideas from a firmware perspective.

from the technical datasheet of my ecu i have read

"With the key in STOP position, the EEPROM contents are copied to RAM."

And

"Interrupt caused by Illegal Op-Code
Interrupt caused by Reset Watchdog
Interrupt caused by Illegal Carrier (Signal Input)
Signalling of: Interrupt caused by clock malfunction
Microprocessor Error * * * * Test Frequency: Every Power on and every microprocessor interrupt

RESET the Microcontroller"

can this be a problem that i have? is this a couse of my issue?
I can send you bin file from my ecu.
Magneti Marelli IAW 18F
have you got any idea how to solve my issue?
Rgds
Tommi

Post by **Mangus** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:01 am

Again, Craig is the guy to ask about this.

Craig Moates · Post by **Craig Moates** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:07 am

This could be related to speed, I'm not sure. What memory does the ECU normally take, what speed? What if you upload the same binary over and over from TunerPro RT? How about when you verify?

The Ostrich2 is capable of bumpless transfers on most applications. However, I haven't done any testing with the Fiat ECUs so I cannot say.

Of course if it somehow doesn't work out, there's a money-back guarantee. However, if you get it working please let us know what you find.

Best regards,
Craig

Tommi · Post by **Tommi** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:38 am

Craig Moates wrote:This could be related to speed, I'm not sure. What memory does the ECU normally take, what speed? What if you upload the same binary over and over from TunerPro RT? How about when you verify?

The Ostrich2 is capable of bumpless transfers on most applications. However, I haven't done any testing with the Fiat ECUs so I cannot say.

Of course if it somehow doesn't work out, there's a money-back guarantee. However, if you get it working please let us know what you find.

Best regards,
Craig

The eproms are 90ns M27C512
If I upload this same bin the problem is this same, shut down engine, after key off and on it works fine.
I have another idea, maybe there is triger that if something was change in the eprom --> reset processor disableing this it may work. but i have lack of knoledge about code so it will probably take some time for me.

Six_Shooter · Post by **Six_Shooter** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:36 pm

Is that the same as a 27C512? I'm not anywhere near even a knowledgable chip guy yet, but doesn't the "M" signify the factory or manufacturer of that particular chip?

You do have the Ostrich switches set to 28 and 28, correct?

Tommi · Post by **Tommi** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:03 am

Six_Shooter wrote:Is that the same as a 27C512? I'm not anywhere near even a knowledgable chip guy yet, but doesn't the "M" signify the factory or manufacturer of that particular chip?

You do have the Ostrich switches set to 28 and 28, correct?

Yes the eprom is this same as 27C512.
Ostrich switches are ok, Ostrich works when try to emulate, it shut dow engine once try to make changes.

Six_Shooter · Post by **Six_Shooter** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:00 pm

Craig, do you think something like a Socket Booster (Chip extender as a substitute) may help in this situation?

Turbochris · Post by **Turbochris** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:22 am

There are many modern ECU´s that read the EPROM’s content when ignition is turned on, store it in the processors RAM and constantly modify it there. The burned EPROM is a very solid way to store data, but, to today’s processors, very slow.

Of course these are not sensitive to changes that are made in the EPROM emulator, but see a fault if the EPROM data suddenly changes.

If you re-start the engine, you changes are transferred to RAM and again everything is fine.

If you install a button that cuts the ECU´s power, I think you can force it to re-load and make changes faster. Load up to EMU, engine stalls, press ECU power switch, engine starts, try again. If you have a good driver, this can even be done while the car moves or on a rolling road. Takes two seconds. Maybe assisted by pressing the clutch and letting it go.

There are sure complicated and expensive ways to get around this problem, but I think they have to be solved individually and not in Craig’s hard- or Mark’s soft-ware.

There are ECU´s that simply can not be tuned in real time. Others have flash memories that also can not be replaced by any "normal" emulator. These have to be accessed in other ways.

Chris

Six_Shooter · Post by **Six_Shooter** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:41 am

Interesting. I'd be interested in the ways around the problem with these types of ECU/Ms.

Turbochris · Post by **Turbochris** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:20 pm

Hi!

This is very simple: First you buy a basic software. Then you buy the add ons and plug ins for your special family of ECU´s.
Now you pay for the special hardware, that gives you access to the ECU. Last you buy a DAMOS file that contains the addresses of the certain engines data. Modern cars have hundreds of maps. You would need years to figure out by your self what is important and not.

Now you can tune... Think of an investment of 10.000-20.000 USD.

Next ECU model or engine generation needs new hardware and new files.

http://www.evc.de/en/

This is one of the best basic programmes. Even the demo version is of more use than many full versions of other so called chip tuning programs that float around. You can compare two files in a few minutes. Good thing to analyse, if you already have some tuning and stock files to look at.

If you are lucky, they sent you there demo upon request. Please note they say:“ Our company supplies only tuning companies and dealers.” And they are not kidding. So be sure to be a company if you ask!

If you read there pages carefully, you can learn a lot about modern ECU´s and how to use them. They don’t do “nice to have” things, you really need there hardware.

If you ask me “why is this stuff so complicated”, I think this has something to do with protecting markets. Chinese cars cant full fill the anti pollution laws in Europe or the US with cheap old copy’s of our injection systems. So they cant be imported if they don’t have a western made ECU. That gives us control about the number of imports and cheap Chinese cars become expensive… clever, eh?

If only a few control a market, it is called a oligopoly. The suppliers of injection systems are one, that´s for sure.

The next generation of engines features in cylinder combustion sensing and cylinder selective emission control in real time. There isn’t even a word for this in Chinese… yet.

Chris